David Sirota 0:03
From The Lever's Reader supported newsroom, this is Lever Time. I'm David Sirota. If you've been watching the stock and bond markets this week, you already know that Donald Trump's tariff apocalypse is happening. Democratic leaders are warning that we're on the verge of an economic crash. Trump's administration, by contrast, is arguing that this is a predictable panic about a long overdue change to America's trade policy, a change that they say can rebuild America's manufacturing industries. Wall Street analysts are, of course, freaking out. Political operatives are offering up different messaging strategies, but somehow left out of most of the discourse is America's working class today on lever time. We're going to try to do our part to fix that. We talk to the United Auto Workers President Sean Fane, who represents hundreds of 1000s of blue collar workers, many of them concentrated in the swing states that shift national politics, we discuss the big questions, will Trump's tariffs actually help rebuild America's manufacturing industries, or will they cause so much price pain that they end up crashing the economy? And why were both parties so hostile for so long to those who've been saying that America's existing trade policies were causing a political and economic earthquake.
Ross Perot 1:32
You can move your factory south of the border. Pay $1 an hour for labor, hire a young 25 let's assume you've been in business for a long time. You've got a mature workforce. This
David Sirota 1:40
is the voice of billionaire Ross Perot railing on the proposed North American Free Trade Agreement on the presidential debate stage in 1992
Ross Perot 1:50
pay $1 an hour for your labor. Have no health care. That's the most expensive single element making a car. Have no environmental controls, no pollution controls, and no retirement, and you don't care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south.
David Sirota 2:08
Perot's predictions proved to be true in the 33 years since the trade deal passed, America has lost millions of manufacturing jobs and 1000s of factories, and now we're living through the culmination of the backlash to all of that Donald Trump's tariff apocalypse, which just keeps getting more chaotic as I'm recording this right now, Trump just posted to social media that he's temporarily suspending some tariffs on some countries as the stock and bond markets bounce up and down like crazy in the days since Trump declared Liberation Day and said he is imposing massive across the board tariffs, Democrats have mostly made a free trade argument, implying that all tariffs are bad. Republicans seem caught between their old free trade routes and their loyalty to Trump. I was on MSNBC earlier this week saying that tariffs are like a hammer. The Biden administration used them strategically to build manufacturing jobs in certain industries, while Trump's across the board maneuver seems like a power grab designed to destroy but left out of much of the discourse have been American workers, and specifically workers in the manufacturing industries that Trump says his tariffs are designed to protect. So here at lever time, we reached out to the president of one of the largest industrial unions in America, the United Auto Workers, Sean Fein, who's right in the middle of all of this. Fane supported Kamala Harris in the 2024 election, and he's worked closely with Bernie Sanders in pushing a populist economic message. But when in March, Trump announced targeted auto tariffs, the UAW praised the move in a statement at the time, Fane said, quote, We applaud the Trump administration for stepping up to end the free trade disaster that's devastated working class communities for decades, ending the race to the bottom in the auto industry starts with fixing our broken trade deals, and the Trump administration has made history with today's actions. Fan and I talked minutes before Trump announced a partial pause of tariffs that he had previously announced in our conversation, we discuss what Fane is hearing from union members about Trump's tariffs and whether there are concerns that tariffs might hurt more workers than they help. We also discuss the pushback that fain has faced from some Democrats who argue that unions saying anything positive about tariffs at all ends up helping Donald Trump, which is bad for workers. But before we got to all of that, I started the conversation by asking Fane about the t shirt that he was wearing during our interview, a t shirt that said in big letters that. Ross Perot was right. I asked Fane to lay out the auto workers larger argument about trade policy and what he thinks has led to this moment of chaos. So
for those who have never heard of it, make your case about how exactly NAFTA and other tariff free trade deals, in your view, harmed auto workers, other manufacturing jobs. And it dovetails with what's on your what's on what's on your shirt, right now, Ross Perot was right. So why was Ross Perot, right? And what is exactly your analysis, for people who don't remember, maybe, maybe not know the details of things like NAFTA?
Shawn Fain 5:51
Yeah. I mean, look, it's, it's completely, you know, decimated the manufacturing base in this country, and it's a big reason, in my opinion, why we have the situation politically we have right now. Look, when I grew up in Kokomo, Indiana, you know, there was, you know, GM was a major employer there, as it was a child growing up, most of my family worked there, my grandparents, two of my grandparents, aunts and uncles. And, you know, it was 15 to 17,000 jobs in GM, just in my small town in Kokomo, Indiana at that time. And you know, when NAFTA was put in place in the you know, 1993 1994 you know, you started to see those jobs disappear and and not just there, all over. I mean, you talk about the Midwest, all over this country. I mean, since nafta's inception in 94 you know, over 90,000 manufacturing plants have disappeared in this country, you know. And that's, you know, when you talk about auto in particular, I mean all those manufacturing jobs, every, for every the Economic Policy Institute did a study years ago. You know, for every 100 autumn automotive jobs, there are 700 secondary jobs born out of that. And so when those 100 auto jobs disappear, 700 other jobs disappear. Now, you multiply that times millions, it's not it's not hard to see why we're in a situation we're in. Now, you know you, you talk. Look at Flint, Michigan. Look at look at Ohio. Look in Wisconsin, look in Pennsylvania. Look all over the Midwest, and really all over the country, whether it's, you know, clothing manufacturing, all those industries have just vanished, and not because of, you know, it's better for working people. And the argument of NAFTA back then, you know, was that it's gonna, you know, all these Nobel laureate economists and former presidents are all saying it's gonna be great. It's gonna create all these 400,000 jobs in America in the first year. It's gonna raise the standard of living for Mexican workers and American workers. And everything that played out is exactly the opposite. It's exactly what Ross Perot said, you know, in the in the debate between Clinton, Bucha and Perot, back in 1992 when he said, we're going to hear a giant sucking sound of all of our jobs going south. And it's exactly what happened. And and we've seen that the standard of living for the Mexican worker has been cut in half since NAFTA went into place, and also, the standard living for American workers has has been reduced so, so, you know, all those things paint a very good picture to me. You know, in this past election, we talk about, you know, the the swing states, you know, the the core of the swing states, we're going to have to deliver the election. We're going to be Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, and you look at how all those states went, and there's a reason why, because I say this a lot in my life, in my first 28 years as a UAW member, working at Chrysler, I mean, all I saw was plants closed year after year, and I feel a rage. I mean, I to this day, I still feel a rage about how we've been cheated. And so when you see a person like Donald Trump come along and start talking about, you know, tariffs and trade, and people still are threatening their plants being closed, that spoke to people.
David Sirota 9:14
Well, let's talk a little bit about about just the tariffs here, because I think a lot of people who aren't keyed into or not connected to, or don't feel connected to the manufacturing set of industries. They say, look, all Donald Trump is doing is, is raising prices for goods by slapping on these tariffs. So I, what I, what I want to hear is, is what you say to them about how tariffs strategically used can boost manufacturing jobs in a way that that maybe allays some of those fears of folks looking at this and saying, Oh, my God, this is just going to be higher prices for things I need to survive. Yeah.
Shawn Fain 9:56
Well, prior to NAFTA, we had tariffs in place in El. Lot of these sectors, you know, but they weren't. It wasn't just a carpet bombing of tariffs, where they just put a tariff on everything everywhere. I mean, it was. They were strategically put in place to, you know, to to encourage, you know, you know, people buying our product. And you know, they worked, you know, somewhat reciprocally between countries, but at the end of the day, there were a lot of tariffs in place in auto and different industries. You know, NAFTA eliminated all those tariffs, so we had tariffs in place for for decades, and it worked, you know, but, but the thing that's interesting to me now is, is always, to me, Wall Street is a driver behind a lot of this fear that's being put out about tariffs. And because, you know, the people who benefited over the last 30 years from these broken trade deals has been, you know, the corporate class and the wealthy. You know, because as they drove a race to the bottom by shifting all of our manufacturing to low wage countries, and drove their profits up, they didn't pass those profits on to the consumer. They didn't pass those profits on to the workers. They didn't pass those profits on the communities where these companies reside. The profits all in the pockets of in the form of stock buybacks and increased CEO pay at Wall Street and dividends and all that. So you know, you think the last 15 years, we've seen record profits in the auto industry, and I believe it's like one, $1.6 trillion by the top 10 automakers in the last 15 years in profit. And you know, instead of, you know, investing back in the communities where they reside, instead of investing in the workers who generate those profits, instead of, you know, paying, you know, more taxes, or, you know, paying back, you know, companies that have been given a lot of government assistance, they've, they've put 360, $7 billion in stock dividends and buybacks and over a billion dollars in CEO pay. That's the problem here. So when we talk about how tariffs are going to drive the cost of things up. They don't have to. It's a choice. And I go back to, you know, roughly 2019, 2020, over a four year period, there automotive, automotive companies alone, because of they took advantage of a pandemic. And anytime there's a crisis in this country, you watch what happens. The corporate class and the wealthy find ways to extract more wealth for themselves when they see a crisis and what happened? Then, the price of automobiles over those four years went up 35 to 40% on average. There was no reason for it. They came up the excuse that they needed parts and things like that. That wasn't the issue. It was. It was just a fact that they saw. I mean, wages didn't go up. Nothing changed for workers. You know, they didn't invest more in our communities. It was just they saw an opportunity to Jack prices up, price gowns a consumer and make more profits. And just as proof of that, you know, still anus alone, you know, they got really aggressive with their pricing. A ram truck that I brought in, I leased in 2020, the sticker on that was $62,000 which is a lot of money in 2023 when my lease was up, that same truck was $82,000 it went up $20,000 over a three year period, and nothing really happened. I mean, it wasn't massive wage increases, you know, and that's the thing. So they don't have to raise the price of anything. It's a choice. But to me, it's just, it's, it's, it's now that, now that, you know, the stock market's been impacted somewhat by all this doomsday scenario. You know, you hear Wall Street crying and leading that battle cry that's going to drive prices up, and it's the end of the world. You know, this is one thing that I do know. You know workers who have 401, K, such as myself. I mean, yeah, there's concern, but, but ultimately, you know, who's 401, case been suffering for the last 35 years, the millions of workers who have lost their jobs due to the offshoring of this factory work. And that's something that Wall Street, or nobody's talking about right now. Well, so
David Sirota 13:57
what do you make of the folks who are the sort of free traders who are saying we're waving around, for instance, stellantis decision or announcement that it's temporarily pausing production at two assembly plants and that the 900 US represented employees at supporting plants are going to be temporarily laid off. I've seen this waved around as Aha, proof that Trump tariffs are actually hurting the auto workers that Trump purports to be defending and helping.
Shawn Fain 14:29
Well, I would say, first off, I don't find it coincidental that as Trump was announcing the tariff, Solanus was announcing a layoff,
David Sirota 14:37
so kind of like a capital strike situation that's, things didn't change
Shawn Fain 14:41
that quick. All of a sudden, things didn't change. The tariffs weren't even in place yet. And so, you know, I think it's, it's, it's, it's not a coincidence. I think it was intentional. And rather than stillness, being being proactive, knowing full well, for three months now. That tariffs were coming. They've been warned. They've been told they could have been more like GM and Ford, who who were looking at ways to to adapt to this. You know, GM announced they're bringing, you know, they're increasing product at the Fort Wayne assembly plant for trucks. They're not talking about that. They're not talking about Ford coming up with employee pricing for everyone, things like that. So, you know, foreign GM chose to get creative, and they're looking at ways to bring work back and to and to to work with the consumer. Meanwhile, stellanus shows the same old, tired philosophy of of making workers pay for their bad decisions. And so I do believe that stellenus will bring work back. I do believe, you know, that all these companies, I think these tariffs, will result in auto in work coming back to this country. And that's what's got to happen here. So I think people just use that layoff as a, you know, the free traders as their as their battle cry to say, see, we told you, but they're not saying, wait a minute, what about the gene plant in Fort Wayne, Indiana that just announced they're going to bring back more product. I'm not talking about that. On the flip side,
David Sirota 16:08
well, I would say this. I mean, I and look, I on this point, you and I are in agreement that you can't take the actions of politically interested CEOs and corporate executives trying to threaten their way to a policy that they want. I mean this, right? These are not sort of good faith actors operating purely on market forces. They're trying to get what they want. I would ask you about your your membership. What are you hearing from the rank and file? I've seen some polling, and we'll get into that in a second. But what are you hearing from your rank and file about the tariffs? Are you hearing both? Hey, I'm worried about the, you know, the price of groceries or the like, going up in my daily life, but I also am concerned about the offshoring, potentially, of my jobs with when such such tariffs aren't in place like what's the basic reaction?
Shawn Fain 17:03
So I think a majority of our members, you know, understand, you know, they've lived it. You can talk to many of our members, and many of them have their lives have been disrupted. They've had to, you know, pack up their families and move more than one time because a plant closed in in Missouri, and they moved to Ohio, and then they're playing Ohio clothes. Now they're in Indiana. So people that have lived that reality, they've already experienced, you know, the broken trade system in this country more than once, and they're fed up with it. So I think a lot of them understand it, and I think a lot of them, you know, believe that tariffs, you know, look, tariffs aren't, aren't the, you know, end all, be all solution to this. Tariffs are a tool. They're a they're a mechanism to force these companies to start doing the right thing, and looking at American workers and looking at American jobs, which has been left behind for three decades now. So a lot of workers, you know, I think they support that. Now, you know, when you just talk blanket tariffs on everything, you know, I, you know, again, I can't go in depth enough on breaking down every tariff in place and every product. But obviously, you know, there's, there's concern, because, you know, the corporate world is obviously being very apparent that their reaction this is just going to be to Jack prices up and find another way to price gouge consumers, but that doesn't have to happen. So yes, people are concerned about the price of things going up, but ultimately, the price of things don't matter when you don't have a job.
David Sirota 18:37
We'll have more of my discussion with the UAW Sean Fane after this.
What do you what do you say to folks who look out at the at the economy, because I've seen this batted around, this idea that, why do we want America? Why should it be a priority for America to manufacture things? There's been sort of this glib idea that we don't want to bring back factory work to this country, because this country has sort of advanced beyond to be clear, I don't support that theory, but that's but that's what you see said by a lot of people, very flippantly, like, hey, NAFTA, happened China. PNTR happened. The jobs that we didn't want went offshore better, you know, better paying jobs in the information sector or what we should want, and by trying to reverse that, we're trying to get back jobs that we shouldn't necessarily be prioritizing as an advanced industrialized country. Well, what's your guess? My
Shawn Fain 19:52
first question, I guess my first question would be, where are all the jobs in this advice sector? Sure, I'm not seeing Sure. I know a lot of. If, you know, look, when I went to school, I mean, I graduated high school in 1987 when I was in high school, all we were told was, college was the path to the future. You got to get a college degree. I've got a lot of friends. I went to trade school. I became an electrician. I've got a lot of friends that went to college, got master's degrees and everything. And, you know. And I see a lot of people nowadays spending, you know, going hundreds of 1000s of dollars in debt for an education, and they can't find a job where they can, where they can live. And so, you know, where are the jobs number one? Because that's a fallacy to say that we have transformed out of a manufacturing sector. The manufacturing sector has been a lifeblood. It's what built what we used to call the middle class in this country. I don't believe in the middle class. I just believe there's a working class, and there is the rich, and if you, if you don't, if you're not an owner, and you don't own the business, and you don't make all the decisions, and you don't have massive wealth, and then you're a working class person, and, you know, and so the manufacturing sector in this country, like we hear this debate about national security, and they want to, you know, this administration is using like fentanyl production and border security as an issue. I don't believe those are really issues with national security, but I do believe, you know, when we when we eliminate our manufacturing base in this country, we're going to be in big trouble if we have to defend ourselves, because when you can't produce anything, you're opening yourself up for attack from anyone. And you know, I go back to the arsenal of democracy in World War Two. I mean, the way that World War Two was one, when the US got involved, was we utilized the excess capacity at our at our at our auto plants in this country to build bombers, to build tanks, to build jeeps, you know, and that became the Arsenal democracy and so, you know, we have to be able to defend ourselves. So our manufacturing base is key to national security and everything and and the good paying union jobs, you know, prior to NAFTA inception in 1990 you know, just over 20% of the of the workforce was was union since and after now, roughly, you know, 9% less than 10% is Union now. So it's not just been an attack on on manufacturing, it's been an attack on good paying jobs that have pensions, that have benefits, that have high wages, that people can live a decent life off of. And, you know, manufacturing has always provided that. So that's why it's really key. You know, we can't just, you know, a lot of people that go in these information type jobs and things, I mean, what kind of money are they making? What kind of benefits are they getting? You know, so we have to ask those questions.
David Sirota 22:37
Let me ask there's a poll that came out that yesterday that found 65% of those surveyed from Union households say they disapprove of these tariffs. Now it's it's hard to separate out with, you know, which kinds of unions are we talking which kinds of union households? But I wonder, what do you make of that? That number is there sort of big disagreement in the labor movement, if we can call it one giant labor movement. And where are those dividing lines? Well,
Shawn Fain 23:07
I think, you know, I think, look, a lot of polling, you have to take into account the politics of it and everything else. Because, look, you can pull our members during the election, you know, a majority of our members supported, you know, Harris and walls, but you know, over 40% supported the other you know, Trump and and so a lot of our members, when we would do polling over other issues, you know, over over plant issues and stuff like that, or overworking issues, they were pulling along the same lines. Just because they were pissed about us not endorsing Trump. They were saying they disagreed with our stance on, you know, wanting to take action at this plant. So, you know, some of that, I think politics feeds into it, and you got to think about what's going on right now. I mean, while we are applauding the tariffs for auto, you look at the things that this administration is doing to, you know, ripping up the contracts of 700,000 federal workers. You look at the attacks on the NLRB, the Department of Labor, Department of Education. You look at, you know, the threats to Social Security with Elon Musk being involved in all this. So, you know, I, you know, part of that point, I think, could be impacted by those things that are going on right now, because people are seeing a negative impact out the gate on other things that are affecting them. But you know, at the end of the day, I look at it this way, nothing has impacted working class Americans in this country more in the last 30 plus years than our broken trade system, and nothing has been done to address that in the last 30 some years. And so, you know, it's not that we applaud everything that this administration is doing, but they are the first administration in my work life that's tried to do something to address this broken trade system.
David Sirota 24:53
Well, I would, actually, I want to follow on that, because there has also been an argument that, look, the Biden administration tried. Applied to strategically use tariffs in ways that boosted parts of the manufacturing economy. For instance, what's what's held out there tariffs on China when it comes to the domestic solar manufacturing industry, I think that the question then is, you said Trump is the first to really do this. But, and I would stipulate to be clear, my view, the Clinton administration and the Obama administration were, were genuinely terrible on this stuff. I mean, there was not a was the opposite of a strategic attempt to use tariffs to to build the middle class. It was, it was a, it was a gutting of the middle class. And, by the way, George W Bush as well, so to be clear. But I do think there is a strong argument that the Biden administration strategically tried to use tariffs in a kind of smart, a smarter way, as opposed to a blanket way, such a blunt way. And I wonder if you think that's true, because, because, again, I look, I said recently on cable TV, I said, Look, if you want to put together a smart tariff policy, one thing you would, you think you would start with is, hey, listen, we're going to put these tariffs in place, for instance, in 234, years, or whatever timetable there is to give companies a chance to then adjust, invest and start producing, So that by the time the tariffs kick in, it's sort of a strategic and coordinated way to actually have an industrial policy. So I guess, I guess the question out of that is, did we see some of that from the Biden administration, and is there? Is, is there? What do you make of the argument that Trump has has taken those seeds of a constructive industrial policy and taken them way too far
Shawn Fain 26:43
well. So I would say a couple things. And I believe Trump put tariffs on China in his first presidency, and I know Biden the administration continued those tariffs. But the one thing I'll say that the Biden administration did with tariffs when it came to the battery EV transition, you know, they put 100% tariff on on China due to, you know, national security issues, and, you know, with the information and the theft of the information, things like that, we applauded that when that happened. But the problem with those tariffs were that really, and, you know, and the Biden administration doesn't get enough credit for this, with with the with the, you know, transition to battery EV is that, you know, a lot of factories were being built, a lot of work was being put in place. You know, a lot of that was, is still in process right now. So I don't think we fully recognize the benefit of that, you know, and won't for a couple years. And that's when you hear this argument now from, you know, the people that are crying a lot about the tariffs are saying, Oh, it takes two to three years to build a new plant. You know what they're not talking about is the excess capacity we have in this country right now when it comes to our auto industry. You know, you take stellanus alone, the pleto Jeep South plant, they could put new product in there. You take Warren truck right here in Michigan, where I am right now, where they made Ram trucks for 80 years. They quit making them there a year ago, shifted that work to Mexico. They could put that work back in that plant tomorrow, where 3000 people are laid off right now, you know, so there's a lot of excess capacity, and we project just looking at the big three alone, they could, they could bring back 50,000 jobs using the excess capacity they have in big free plants right now. In very short order, it doesn't take two to three years to retool and adjust what you already have. You can just
David Sirota 28:31
throttle you're arguing. You can just throttle up. What? Yes, what is already here. At least start. Yes.
Shawn Fain 28:38
So there's a, so there, you know, there's, you know, you're hearing different you're hearing a lot of doomsday scenario from the talking heads in this, because it's what Wall Street wants. They want to put fear out there. So when we talk about that polling, I think the fear out that's being put out there, you know, is it naturally that's causing concern for people, but, but, you know, so, so you know, yeah, but when you talk about the tariffs, yes, the Biden administration did strategically use tariffs. But look, we asked the Biden administration, you know, to put tariffs on auto, you know, on the companies that were existing now, and to try to stop the bleeding of the millions of jobs that have been leaving in the last 30 years. And you know, they were willing to go that far. So, you know, like I said. I mean, we've said from day one in politics, we're going to call balls and strikes, and no matter what party it is, when you take an issue like trade, which is the biggest issue that has impacted working class Americans in this country, in my work life, in my 35 six years as a worker, it's a big deal for someone to to go this hard on tariffs, I mean, and like I said, we don't agree with, you know? I mean, we don't. We agree with strategically doing tariffs, you know, in the right areas, the right industries, and not punishing everyone. I mean, Canada, you know, to the north, I mean, they pay decent wages, they have good standards. They have good you know, they. Have health care. You know, they're not the enemy in this and even our neighbors in Mexico. Look, the workers aren't the enemy here. The workers are the victims, you know, because the standard of living was supposed to come up for these workers, and just the opposite happened. They don't have insurance. They don't have, you know, they don't have, you know, retirement security and their wages have went down with the inception of NAFTA. So I don't blame the workers. I blame corporate greed, and that's where the focus in this has to be. We have to have standards in our trade policies, that if we're going to do business with someone, they need to lift the standard up of working people. And if the workers get left behind in that equation, then we shouldn't be doing business with Yeah. I mean,
David Sirota 30:37
your point about Canada is really well taken this idea that having free trade agreements with essentially parallel economies where the standards are roughly the same, much less controversial to have sort of free trade with those countries, because it doesn't provide corporations the ability to exploit a comparative advantage in, you know, treating workers terribly, treating the environment terribly and the like. It's when we talk about places like China where working conditions are much worse, environmental conditions much worse. But I want to go back to your point about balls and strikes, because this is, I think, really important. I feel like there's been a culture created in democratic politics, Democratic Party politics, or sort of non Republican politics, I guess you'd call it where, where there is this expectation and demand that the labor movement simply parrot anything that is politically good for the Democratic Party, which is to say that the labor movement is not perceived To be an independent force that is trying to get and push and pressure both parties to do what the labor movement believes is in the interest of workers. Just talk a little bit about about that. If that's been your experience, you're trying to call balls and strikes. The political system is saying, Hey, this is either you're with Trump or you're against Trump. How has that been to try to navigate and what do you say to folks who say, Listen, the only thing anybody should be saying is that Trump is bad, that even trying to say tariffs, some tariffs are good, some tariffs are bad, is sort of helping him, and by helping him, that's eventually, ultimately bad for workers.
Shawn Fain 32:21
Well, a couple. There's a lot we talked about right there just now that you're asking, because there's two things in this. When you talk about the labor movement and the unions, look, you know, there's a Kennedy quote that I love it. You know, you know, there are risk and cost to a program of action, but they are far less than the long range risk and cost of comfortable inaction, and that's been the plight. And I'll speak just for the UAW, I'm not going to throw other unions into this, because I'm not going to talk about other unions, but, but for the UAW, you know, complacency has ruled the day for the last several decades. I mean, and a lot of the labor movement has been asleep at the wheel. While things have been happening, we've not been fighting the fights we should be fighting. So the thing you know when, when I came in as president with our new our new International Executive Board, we pledged we're putting members first. We're getting back to our roots, and we're going to fight like hell. And the first thing we did was say, I mean, in my first, actually, in my first month of being President of the UAW, I remember getting a call from the AFL CIO, and they said, hey, you know, President Biden's going to make his announcement for re election. And we're going to try to get all the principal unions to come in and announce their endorsement as he makes the announcement. And I said, Well, I can't do that. You know, there's a lot of work that's got to be done right now and you know, and weren't, you know, and we're going to make sure that, you know, we're on the right side of this, and we have expectations, we're not going to freely give our endorsement to somebody. And so that's, I think, been a really, I think, a big problem in this whole fight all along has been, you know, the Democratic Party has come to take labor for granted when it comes to elections. And it was always this monitor. Well, what are you going to do? Vote Republican? You know, they don't support unions or whatever, and that don't that dog, don't hunt, you know, at the end of the day, you know. And I go back to those, you know, these Midwest states that are always the swing states, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, I mean, you know. And you look at what's happened in those states over the last three, three decades. And you know, they've seen their their futures disappear, and, you know, and all we've been told by the other side and by the Democrats, mostly, is, you know, you know, it's okay. I mean, no one's been leading that fight. You know, there's been, and I don't want to label every Democrat. There have been some really good, strong Democrats, you know, that have stood with us in those fights, but, but, you know, there's, there's a huge facts in the Democratic Party that became, you know, under the Clinton administration and and since that became basically corporate Democrats, they're taking money from the wealthy. The same people that supply, you know, the same people that fund broke these campaigns are, you know, they had. Their bets. And so, you know, working class people been left behind, and working class people are tired of being told. You know that the Democrats have your back when, when we go to fight these fights, they haven't, and that's just being real. And we've been very clear over and over since I've been President, with everyone in Congress, we talked to Democrat or Republican. This is our expectation. Our mission is not going to change no matter who's in the White House or who's in Congress. But we expect you to go to bat on these issues, and if you don't, we're not going to be there for you no matter what party you are. If you support these issues, you stand up for workers and you stand up for a better life for working class people, we'll be there no matter what party you are. And so you know, and labor has to leave that leave that movement. I and there are some unions that are, are, are, are following that same mantra, but there's a lot that still aren't. And so, so I believe the Democrats came to take us for granted, and those days are over in the
David Sirota 35:58
UAW. Well, I mean, and to be clear, I think there's plenty of evidence that you're speaking for your membership, union workers, blue collar workers, all over the country. I mean, I always go back to this, this amazing and it won't be amazing to you, but this incredible study that came out, I think, was last year, which found that in the eight years from the passage of NAFTA, some of the most democratic districts became some of the most Republican districts, and they dug deeper into this and found that there was a lot of blue collar working class voters who had been sticking with the Democrats despite their disagreements with Democrats on Cultural and identity politics issues. They were sticking with the Democrats because they thought the Democrats were with them on economics. And then NAFTA happened, and a lot of those voters said, You know what, they're not with me on on cultural and identity issues that I believe in, and now they're not with me on economics. So I'm going over to the Republicans. And I think so, I guess my point there is just to say that this is not you theorizing here. This is like, literally, what actually happened and change the politics of the entire country and so and so. I just want to go back to where we started, as we as one last question here, which is, which is, if you're talking to somebody, there's definitely people listening to this, who are going to be saying, Look, my, my, I hear what Sean saying about the about the stock market, right? We've seen the stats. The wealthiest 10% of Americans now own 93% of the stock market. That is, that is a statistical fact that said, of course, union pensions and the like, and for one K's own lots of stock at the individual level. Even if you're not one of the richest 10% your 401, K is important to you. A lot of people who are listening to this are looking at the stock market. Forget about what they're being told on CNBC, this is the end of the world, etc. So they're just looking at that line going down and they're saying, Hey, I'm five, seven years from retirement. I'm trying to save for retirement. I'm seeing my 401, K go down. And this is terrifying, and, and, and it's clearly being prompted by a panic over the Trump tariff policy. They see the UAW say, hey, the auto tariffs in specific, I'm not saying you're saying it's all you're for all the tariffs, but the auto tariffs in specific, are something that we support, and this is the end. We're happy that this is the end, or potential end, of the NAFTA free trade era. So they're worried about their their 401, K, they're hearing what you have to say, and they're they're worried. What do you say to those, those those folks, what do you say to that listener?
Shawn Fain 38:42
Well, I mean, they're justifiably worried. I mean, you know, everyone is, I mean, but you know, because there's uncertainty, and the reason we have this uncertainty is because, you know, our manufacturing base in this country has disappeared. It's been ripped out from under us for 30 plus years, and so we have to change that. And there may be some short term pain in this, but we have to get this right. I mean, I say this over and over during our contract fights. You know, this was our generation's defining moment. We have a chance now to redefine, you know, what trade looks like in this country. The biggest thing that's had the biggest impact on all of our 401, K is on all of our pension plans, on all those things, and we have to get it right. And again, I'm not saying that this administration has all the right solutions to this, because what has to happen as we bring these jobs back, they also have to be, you know, good jobs, good paying jobs, you know, with, like I said, with it, with a good wage, with adequate health care, with retirement security, and with people not having to work, you know, two and three jobs, or working seven days a week just to live paycheck to paycheck, we have to have a social policy and, you know, so things like that have to happen. But you know, and you made a great point talking about, you know, how, how the political landscape has changed. You go back to my hometown where I grew up. Kokomo, Indiana, you couldn't run for election in my city as a kid, growing up, even as a young adult, as a Republican, and really have much success. Yeah, right now in my hometown, every city council seat, the mayor, every every seat in that town is Republican. I
David Sirota 40:18
know this story well. My wife, my wife, grew up in in Lafayette, Indiana, spent a lot of time in that area. And you are, you are totally right, I mean,
Shawn Fain 40:27
and so you're spot on your assessment of, you know, when it comes to, you know, when, when the social issues were one thing, even though we were losing jobs, you know, people would still stick with the Democrats. But I've said this over and over to anyone the Democratic Party that'll listen. You need to do some soul searching and take a long look in the mirror about who the hell you support. And you know, is it people, or is it, is it the corporate class and the wealthy? And if you're going to stick with the wealthy and corporate class, you're going to have a hard time winning elections. And, you know, and so, but you know, yeah, with, you know, when it comes to, you know, the stocks, four, one, K's, look, yes, there's, there's going to be some temporary pain involved in this transition right now, but, but I do believe we have to look at long term and long term, we have to get this right. We have to, we have to bring the manufacturing base in this country. And I go back to what I said earlier. You know, when, when every 100 manufacturing jobs creates 700 other secondary jobs that support all that, you know, that's how you generate wealth, that's how you generate income, that's how you generate security. You know, for us, for a for a good future and for a decent retirement, without those things, we're going to see more of the same. And right now, 60% of Americans have no retirement savings, so I don't know what the hell they're going to do when they retire. So what
David Sirota 41:46
one very quick follow up? I know we're right up against the time time, but when you say we have to get it right, what is there a danger that in Trump getting it wrong, going too far, too broad, too volatile, too inconsistent, et cetera, et cetera, that he sets back, ultimately, the argument that you're making about the smart, strategic use of tariffs, that if he gets it wrong, creates too much pain, the narrative then becomes all tariffs are bad. Tariffs are the problem. And here we are, then back to where, where, where the trade debate was after NAFTA, after China. PNTR, well,
Shawn Fain 42:27
I mean, I know there's what I know what risk there is in doing nothing, because we've seen it for 30 to 35 years play out. Doing nothing has has, you know, basically driven our economy and our in our working class ability to have a decent life off a cliff. So, yeah, there are risks, I mean, and yes, there, you know, with any, any thing that we do. But when I say we got to get it right is, you know, this isn't going to happen overnight. You know it's going to take time. I mean, there are elections coming up in 2026, so you know, what we have to do is we have to, we have to put the things out there that are important. We have to push for the things that matter, like I said, like decent wages, having standards involved in bringing this work back where people can have a decent quality of life, and the politicians that support those things we go to war for, and the ones that don't we go to war against, and so all those things going to play into this so and again, you know, we'll see the impact. You know, when, when, when companies are bringing jobs back if they choose to utilize excess capacity and act now, and, you know, and really change things for the good, or if they're going to, you know, cry, we know cry. We know we got to build new plans. It's going to take too long. Then, obviously it's going to be a struggle. But at the end of the day, we've seen time and time again, tariffs have been used in this country, back in the back, in the 60s, with, you know, President Johnson's chicken tax, you know, in the 90s, prior to NAFTA in the 80s, you know, with the auto industry, and they've been successful. So tariffs do work, but again, it's just, you know, it's how we implement it and how we go about, you know, ensuring that they're used in the right way. So it's not perfect what's happening right now, but it's a hell of a lot better than what we've seen in the past 30 some years.
David Sirota 44:18
Sean Fain, thank you so much for taking time with us today. Really appreciate
Shawn Fain 44:22
it. Oh, thank you. Yes, pleasure lunch.
David Sirota 44:29
Thanks for listening to today's episode of lever time. This episode was produced by me, David Sirota, Arjun Singh Ariella Markowitz and Natalie bettendorf. Music is by Nick Byron Campbell, to get all of our lever time episodes, make sure to search lever time in your podcast app or go to lever time podcast.com. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
